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科比邓肯生涯真实命中率一样|科比其实很高效

www.7m.com.cn  2019年09月30日 来源:直播吧 【大 中 小】

  Interesting: Kobe and Duncan have virtually identical career TS%


  有意思,科比和邓肯职业生涯真实命中率几乎一样。

 


  Kobe has a career TS% of 55.0, while Duncan's is 55.1.


  I just think it's interesting that Kobe's supposed lack of efficiency is often brought up for having him not in the top 10, or in the lower part of it, but I have never once heard this for Duncan. Especially since Kobe attempted about 5 more FGA per game for his career, and as volume increases typically efficiency drops.


  I know Duncan had a very different game, so a direct comparison like this doesn't tell the whole story, but it's just interesting how narratives often do not reflect the stats


  科比生涯真实命中率是55%,而邓肯是55.1%。


  我就觉得这个很有意思,因为大家老说科比缺乏效率,所以要不就不把他算进历史前10,要不就在前10里排的很靠后,不过我从来没听到有人这么说邓肯。何况科比职业生涯的场均出手次数还比邓肯多5次,而出手的增加通常意味着效率的下降。


  我知道,邓肯的比赛风格非常不同,所以这种直接比较并不能完全说明问题,不过呢,我就是觉着舆论往往不大反映数据这点还是很逗的。


  ————————


  [–]Raptors derozansmole 858 指標 3 天前


  Kobe's supposed lack of efficiency is one of the most overblown, nonsense talking points based on current era standards that has no basis on the actual type of player he was. He wasn't inefficient compared to his peers or his time especially on the production he provided.


  猛龙球迷:基于如今这个时代的标准来说什么科比缺乏效率,这是最扯的鬼话之一,因为这种论调压根就没考虑他以前的实际风格。比起他那个时代的其他球员来说,科比并不低效,特别是他的场上输出。


  [–]NBA ivabra 8 指標 3 天前


  Indeed, the fact that in his era he wasn't as inefficient as people made him to be, and that there are so many other players in the league right now that are inefficient but never get mentioned as inefficient just shows that it's most often bullshit. We know he's not as efficient as KD and LeBron who are monsters in this regard but it has created unfair criticism towards Kobe


  确实,事实上在他那个时代,他并没有大家所误解的那么低效。而在如今的联盟里,最扯的是,很多人其实很低效可是却从来都没人提及。我们都知道,科比确实没有杜兰特和詹姆斯这种怪物这么高效,不过大家对科比的批评确实是不合理的。


  [–]zfc9d3fr 501 指標 3 天前


  a career 45% FG shooter when your go to shot was a turn around fade away long 2 with 2 hands in your face is pretty damn good tbh


  要翻身后撤步投长两分,还有两只手封着你的脸,还能有45%的生涯命中率,说实话,这特么已经很厉害了。


  [–]NBA anorexicpig 74 指標 3 天前


  It just shows the age of some people here is all. Kobe was remarkably inefficient post-Achilles tear when he was just a face to sell tickets, and some young fans probably only watched him live for those games


  In his prime he was never inefficient for his era


  说科比低效恰恰说明了这里很多人的低龄。科比在跟腱撕裂之后确实很低效,那个时候的他只是球队的票房保障,而有些年轻球迷或许只看了这些比赛。


  在科比的巅峰期,他可算不上低效。


  [–]chad12341296 54 指標 3 天前


  Nobody used TS% at the time of his career so people would see guys putting up 50% from the field and wonder why Kobe couldn’t do that but now that TS is commonplace there’s a big sample size that proves that they weren’t actually more efficient


  科比那个时代,没人利用真实命中率这项统计,所以大家看到很多球员高达50%的命中率,就好奇为啥科比做不到,不过既然真实命中率这一提法已经很普遍了,那就有足够大的样本量来证实,他们其他并不比科比高效。


  [–]spyirl 55 指標 3 天前


  He's inefficient compared to Jordan and Lebron who he is compared to.


  科比要比的人是乔丹和詹姆斯,这样比较的话,他就是低效的。


  [–]Heat wormhole222[ ] 27 指標 3 天前


  Yeah it's exactly this. Kobe isn't inefficient compared to normal players, or even a lot of great players, but if you saying he is a top 5 player he is inefficient compared to the competition.


  热火球迷:对,就是这回事。比起一般球员,甚至是很多顶尖球员,科比不是低效的。可你要说他是历史前五的话,那他和其他人一比就是低效的。


  [–][LAL] Nick Young TheChipiboy 7 指標 3 天前


  Kobe was more of a perimeter player compared to those two


  湖人球迷:比起乔丹和詹姆斯,科比更像是一个外线球员吧。


  [–]Knicks BASEDME7O 21 指標 2 天前


  So Jordan and Lebron should be penalized for being better at getting to the rim?


  尼克斯球迷:照你这意思,乔丹和詹姆斯的篮下冲击力更强也有错咯?


  [–][LAL] Nick Young TheChipiboy 8 指標 2 天前


  I'm giving you an explanation as to why his efficiently is lower than theirs.


  湖人球迷:我只是想解释为什么科比的效率低于那两位。


  [–]Wizards zrt 19 指標 3 天前


  Kobe's efficiency during his prime ('98-99 through '12-13):


  eFG: .488 TS: .556


  MJ's efficiency during his prime ('84-85 through '97-98):


  eFG: .518 TS: .580


  MJ was more efficient, but Kobe was much closer than people think.


  奇才球迷:科比巅峰期的效率(98/99赛季到12/13赛季):


  有效命中率:48.8.8%,真实命中率:55.6%;


  乔丹巅峰期的效率(84/85赛季到97/98赛季):


  有效命中率:51.8%,真实命中率:58%


  乔丹更高效,可是科比的差距也没有大家想象的那么大。


  [–]Hawks KredditH 27 指標 3 天前


  Kobe was efficient but I think the issue and reason people bring up his efficiency was that it was definitely lower than the guys he was compared to a lot like MJ and LeBron. Of course, those guys are better players, so it's not a perfect comparison.


  Kobe's efficiency was good enough that he's a top 15 player which is where most people have him.


  老鹰球迷:科比是高效的,不过觉得大家拿他的效率说事儿,还是因为他的效率比他要比较的乔丹、詹姆斯等人差。当然了,这些人更强,所以这种比较也不尽完美。


  科比的效率是足够好的,大多数人都觉得他是历史前15的球员。


  [–]Lakers AmnestyTHAT 21 指標 3 天前


  He's a top 10 player*


  湖人球迷:他是历史前10.


  [–]Sufficient Calories 9 指標 2 天前


  LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Bird, Magic are i think no brainers to put ahead of him.


  So at best he's 9th. But do you take him over Wilt? I definitely wouldnt. So that's tenth. I can see top 15, even though I think he's overrated, but top 10 is a huge stretch because you'd be arguing none of Curry, Durant, Duncan, Garnett, Oscar Robertson, Malone belong above him. If longetivity matters, Malone passes him. If peak matters, Curry and Durant pass him. If defense is emphasized, then Garnett and Duncan were objectively more impactful on that end. I just don't see him cracking the top ten.


  詹姆斯、乔丹、贾巴尔、拉塞尔、奥尼尔、奥拉朱旺、伯德和魔术师,我觉得把这些人放在科比前面是很轻松的吧。


  所以科比最好也是第9.可是你会觉得他比张伯伦强吗?我肯定是不会的。那就是第10咯。虽说我觉得科比被高估了,但我会把他放进前15,可前10就很牵强了。因为这就意味着库里、杜兰特、邓肯、加内特、奥斯卡-罗伯逊、马龙这些人都不如他。如果生涯寿命很重要的话,那马龙在他前面。如果巅峰期重要的话,那库里和杜兰特在他前面。如果防守重要的话,那加内特和邓肯的影响力更大。我觉得科比进不了历史前十。


  [–]Warriors __BlackSheep 26 指標 3 天前


  Top 5 fight me


  勇士球迷:我就觉得科比历史前5,不服来干啊。

 


  [–][LAL] Kobe Bryant waynehead310 24 指標 3 天前


  I got yo back..


  湖人球迷:我挺你!


  [–]Lakers AmnestyTHAT 10 指標 3 天前


  I mean... He's top 1 for me.


  湖人球迷:我觉得科比是历史第一人。


  ————————


  [–]gnalon 52 指標 3 天前


  You're looking at it completely backwards. Duncan was one of the best defensive players of all time and in addition managed to score as efficiently as Kobe.


  楼主完全是混淆重点。邓肯首先是史上最强的防守球员之一,在此之上,他的得分能力还能保持到和科比一样高效。


  [–]Lakers LionZoo13 15 指標 3 天前


  Or, Kobe was as efficient as one of the greatest big man of all time. And big men in general are more efficient than perimeter players.


  湖人球迷:要不这么说吧,科比和史上最伟大的内线之一一样高效。而内线球员一般都比外线球员更高效。


  [–]Lakers funnyhandlehere 36 指標 3 天前


  I mean, Kobe was on more all-nba defensive teams than any guard in nba history. So we're talking both are all time great defensive players.


  湖人球迷:我觉得吧,科比进赛季最佳防守阵的次数比史上任何后卫都多。所以咱们谈论的这两位,都是历史顶尖的防守人。


  [–]gnalon 23 指標 3 天前


  Even if those all-defense teams were deserved (all but maybe 2 were not), the defensive impact of a big man is in a different category than that of a guard.


  哪怕科比进的那些最佳防守阵容都是应该的(或许有2次不该),一个后卫的防守影响力也是没法和一个内线比的。


  [–]gnalon 9 指標 3 天前


  Kobe was a better perimeter defender and better at getting steals than Duncan, but he was not all-time great at those things. Duncan was a drastically better post defender, rim protector, help defender, communicator, and gave a much more consistent effort than Kobe on defense.


  科比的外线防守和抢断能力强于邓肯,不过他的这些能力并非历史顶级。邓肯的低位防守、护框、协防和防守持续性要比科比强太多。


  [–]Spurs KawhiMVP_Bet 8 指標 3 天前


  I wonder how it would look if Kobe never tore his Achilles and Duncan never had knee problems.


  马刺球迷:我好奇啊,要是科比的跟腱没撕裂,邓肯也没有膝伤,那会是怎样。


  [–][LAL] Kobe Bryant Alonso-Kobe-Ponting 6 指標 2 天前


  Duncan never had knee problems.


  Top 5.


  湖人球迷:“邓肯也没有膝伤”


  那他就是历史前五。


  [–]MontenegroLogenMNE 26 指標 3 天前


  And Kobe's efficiency dropped a lot after the injury, so he is actually morr efficient than Duncan. His last few years destroyed him IMO. The narrative swinged so hard... It makes me sad


  科比的效率在大伤后降了很多,所以他实际上是比邓肯高效的。我觉得他最后几个赛季太毁了。舆论对他的评价转换太大了……我很难受。


  [–]Lakers funnyhandlehere 19 指標 3 天前


  In fairness, it was really only a little more than one season's worth of games. And at that point he was approximately an average player if you go by PER. But you are correct, he was more efficient over most of their careers than Duncan, I think primarily because he drew more fouls and shot them much better than TD.


  湖人球迷:客观来说,其实科比伤后效率大降的比赛也就一个赛季多一点。你要是看效率值就知道,那个时候的科比差不多沦为普通球员了。可是你有一点没说错,他职业生涯大部分时间都比邓肯高效。我觉得这主要是因为他造的犯规更多,而且罚球命中率比邓肯好很多。


  [–]icewaternolemon 31 指標 3 天前


  Duncan also played until he was 40.


  邓肯还打到了40岁呢。


  [–]Joooseph2 5 指標 3 天前


  And Duncan didn’t have one of the worst injuries a player can have.


  那邓肯也没科比那种惨烈的伤势啊。


  [–]icewaternolemon 19 指標 3 天前


  He played half his career after a knee injury that robbed him of a ton of his athleticism. That's at least comparable to Kobe playing 80-90 games post Achilles.


  邓肯的生涯有一半的时间是在膝伤过后,那种伤病极大地削弱了他的运动能力。这至少能顶的上科比跟腱伤后打的八九十场比赛吧。


  [–]Bulls BigPoppaPuff 221 指標 3 天前


  Kobe wasn't inefficient, he just played a lot of his prime in a super "inefficient" era, granted he wasn't the best three point shooter for but for the time he played in he was perfectly fine as far as efficiency. None of the top Perimeter players were super efficient by today's standard.


  公牛球迷:科比并不低效,只是他的巅峰期大部分处于一个超级“低效”的年代,他确实不是那种顶尖的三分手,可是就当时来说,他的效率是没的说的。按照今天的标准来说,那些顶尖的外线球员没有一个是超级高效的。


  [–]Magic Typical_NBA_Comment 92 指標 3 天前


  Not to be one of those guys, but young LeBron was way more efficient than I thought he was, especially in his first two MVP years.


  魔术球迷:詹姆斯就不是那种球员,不过年轻的詹姆斯当年比我以为的还要高效地多啊,特别是在他拿头两个MVP的那些年。


  [–][LAL] Steve Nash DetectiveCactus 137 指標 3 天前


  It makes sense. Bron didnt take many jump shots back then. He was a dominant slasher


  湖人球迷:在理。老詹当时没有那么多跳投,他那会儿就是个很有统治力的篮下球员。


  [–][LAL] Caron Butler Dstorm55 74 指標 3 天前


  Exactly, Brons a tank. Why settle for jumpers if you could legitimately force your way in for a layup or dunk.


  湖人球迷:确实啊,老詹那会儿就是个坦克。要是你能一路往里推到篮下上篮或暴扣,那还要啥跳投?

 


  ————————


  [–]Celtics absynthe7 93 指標 3 天前*


  Actually, if you compare the two of their careers, you get all sorts of really weird parallels, they come across as having nearly identical careers doing radically different things.


  KOBE:


  5x Champion


  2x Finals MVP


  1x NBA MVP


  18x All-Star


  11x All-NBA First Team


  9x All-Defense First Team


  #3 All-Time in Points Scored


  DUNCAN:


  5x Champion


  3x Finals MVP


  2x NBA MVP


  15x All-Star


  10x All-NBA First Team


  8x All-Defense First Team


  #7 All-Time in Rebounds, #6 All-Time in Blocks


  Duncan peaked early, winning a championship past his prime with Kawhi. Kobe peaked late, winning championships before his prime with Shaq. Kobe was in a huge market and got massive media attention, Duncan was in a smaller market and virtually ignored by the national press. One was flashy and known for his highlights, the other was boring and known for his fundamentals. One was known for his offense but had decent defense (great for his position), the other known for his defense but had a decent offensive game (great for his role on the team).


  They're like mirror images of each other.


  凯尔特人球迷:实际上呢,要是你拿科比和邓肯的职业生涯比较,就能找到各种奇怪的相似点。他俩虽说职责分工非常不同,但是职业生涯成绩却基本一样。


  科比:5冠军、2次总决赛MVP、1次常规赛MVP、18次入选全明星、11次最佳阵一阵、9次最佳防守阵一阵、历史总得分排在第三;


  邓肯:5冠军、3次总决赛MVP、2次常规赛MVP、15次入选全明星、10次最佳阵一阵、8次最佳防守阵一阵、历史总篮板排在第7、历史总盖帽排在第6;


  邓肯的巅峰期来得早,过了巅峰期还能和小卡一起拿到总冠军。科比巅峰期来得迟,在巅峰期之前和奥尼尔一起夺冠。科比处在大球市,得到了大量的媒体曝光,邓肯所处的球市相对较小,基本被全国媒体忽视。一个球风绚丽,一个球风相对枯燥。一个以进攻闻名,却也有不错的防守(在该位置顶级),另一个以防守闻名,但是进攻也很强(在队内所扮演角色来说已经很不错了)


  他俩就像是彼此的镜像。


  [–]Spurs Nacunar 9 指標 3 天前


  Kawhi was a big part in that championship, but in my opinion Duncan was the best player throughout that title run.


  马刺球迷:邓肯最后那个冠军小卡的作用很关键,不过我觉得马刺那次夺冠之路,邓肯是最佳球员。


  [–][DAL] Dennis Smith fishfishfish1345 27 指標 3 天前


  Duncan not winning DPOY is crazy actually


  独行侠球迷:讲真,邓肯没拿过最佳防守球员很荒谬。

 


  [–]rodrigo_c91 18 指標 3 天前


  I think equally crazy as Kobe only having 1 mvp


  我觉得这和科比只拿过一次MVP一样荒谬。


  [–]peppermintpattymills 11 指標 2 天前


  Kobe "only" having one MVP makes sense when you start going through it year by year. He played during a really competitive era where guys put up some fantastic regular seasons. The common one was him being robbed in '06 by Nash but honestly I think Dirk had just as good or better case than either of those guys. Conversely, he won in '08 but that CP3 had a fantastic case as well (again, remember these are voted on right at the end of the regular season, when looking back we have to train ourselves to ignore the playoffs). If you keep going down the line then Kobe is around 1 'deserved' MVP.


  你要是一年年来深入分析的话,科比“只”拿一次MVP还是很合理的。他那个年代的竞争真的很激烈,很多球员都打出了非常出色的常规赛季。大家公认的是他06年的MVP被纳什抢了,不过我觉得德克那个赛季的表现和那年的候选人一样出色,甚至还更好。反过来,科比08年拿MVP那次保罗打得也很好呢。你要是深究的话,科比还真只能拿一次“实至名归”的MVP。


  [–]WeaponX33 19 指標 3 天前


  Crazy that Kobe only had 1 MVP.


  Crazy that Duncan had zero DPOY.


  While true that Duncan won a chip with Kawhi that whole squad was absolutely tits and he was still the best player on it overall.


  Kawhi didn’t become the Kawhi we now have until the last 3 games of the Finals. Even then he had the best 3 games but Duncan had the better overall series.


  科比只拿一次MVP很荒谬,邓肯没拿过最佳防守球员很荒谬。话虽如此,邓肯和小卡夺冠的那个赛季,马刺的阵容很一般,可他还是队里的最佳球员。


  我们现在眼中的小卡是在他打了那年总决赛后三场比赛之后才看到的。即便他当时打出了三场最强表现,可邓肯的总体表现还是那轮系列赛最好的。


  ————————


  [–]NBA bioskope 57 指標 3 天前


  Duncan was at times a liability from the FT line. That's why they have almost similar TS% in spite of there being a ~6% difference in their FG%. Furthermore, If you look at the EFG%, you will see that Duncan is still ahead of Kobe .


  邓肯的罚球命中率有时候是个拖累。所以尽管他和科比的命中率有6%的差距,但是他俩的真实命中率却几乎一样。这么说吧,你要是看有效命中率,就知道邓肯还是比科比高。


  [–]Warriors aahdin 24 指標 3 天前


  Okay... can anyone give me a reason why I should care more about EFG% than TS% here?


  If Kobe hits two extra free throws and misses a layup compared to Duncan... it doesn't really matter much does it?


  It's like, 'Duncan is better if you ignore free throws'... yeah, but why would I want to ignore free throws? Most players get better if you just ignore the stuff they're bad at.


  勇士球迷:行吧……那谁能说说为啥我得把有效命中率看得比真实命中率更重要呢?


  要是科比罚球进了俩然后上篮丢一个,再和邓肯比的话……其实也没那么重要对吧?


  你可以说,“要是不看罚球的话邓肯更强……”是,可是我为啥要忽视罚球呢?要是你忽视球员的弱项的话,那多数球员都更厉害了。


  [–]Celtics Confirmation__Bias 135 指標 3 天前


  I just think it's interesting that Kobe's supposed lack of efficiency is often brought up for having him not in the top 10, or in the lower part of it, but I have never once heard this for Duncan.


  Uh... that's because Tim Duncan's ranking is mainly based on the fact that he's one of the greatest defenders of all time lmao.


  凯尔特人球迷:“我就觉得这个很有意思,因为大家老说科比缺乏效率,所以要不就不把他算进历史前10,要不就在前10里排的很靠后,不过我从来没听到有人这么说邓肯。”


  呃……这是因为邓肯的排名主要基于的事实是,他是史上最强的防守人之一,哈哈哈


  [–]Trail Blazers puffpuffpastor 20 指標 3 天前


  It's a travesty that Duncan didn't win a single DPOY. Even the year before he retired he was a dominant defender, and he was far from mobile by then


  开拓者球迷:邓肯一次DPOY都没拿真是瞎搞。哪怕是在他退役之前那个赛季,他在防守端也很有统治力,而他当时的移动能力已远不如从前了。


  [–]Celtics OverallPrettyGood 12 指標 3 天前


  He was competing with Ben Wallace and KG during his peak years, unfortunately


  凯尔特人球迷:可惜啊,他的巅峰期要和大本、加内特竞争啊。


  [–]Trail Blazers puffpuffpastor 7 指標 3 天前


  Yeah, it's hard to argue that he was "robbed" in any one individual season (although you could definitely make a strong case for him in some). It just feels like he deserves to have at least one because his consistency and longevity exceeded both of those guys by a pretty considerable margin.


  开拓者球迷:是啊,你也不好说他在个人奖项上被谁抢了。大家觉得他至少该拿一次DPOY是因为他的稳定性和生涯寿命远远超过了大本和狼王。

 

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